Our Wild Lives

Navigating the Human Side of a Science Career with Anna Chalfoun

• The Wildlife Society

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You signed up for wildlife science to work with animals—then discovered most of the job is working with people...

In this episode, Katie sits down with Dr. Anna Chalfoun in Pinedale, Wyoming, to unpack the soft skills that drive great science: building a healthy lab culture, mentoring with intention, and navigating conflict without burning bridges.

Anna shares candid lessons you can use whether you’re a new professor, a grad student searching for the right advisor, or a professional trying to make your team work better.

Conflict is inevitable, so we share tools that work. Anna’s favorite: pause, breathe, get curious. It’s a simple reset that replaces knee-jerk fixes with better questions.. By the end, you’ll have a playbook for aligning your lab with your values, supporting students as they grow from learners to colleagues, and sustaining your own energy for the long haul.

If you care about wildlife, mentorship, and doing science that lasts, this conversation will sharpen the way you lead and learn.

Enjoyed the conversation? Subscribe, share it with a colleague, and leave a review to help more folks find the show.

Learn more:

The Wildlife Society - https://wildlife.org/

About Anna - https://wyocoopunit.org/chalfoun-lab/don-jones-2/

Wyoming Co-op Unit - https://wyocoopunit.org/

Tara Kuipers workshops - https://www.tarakuipersconsulting.com/copy-of-services


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Katie Perkins:

So, you got into wildlife to work with the animals, but no one actually told you how much time you'd be spending managing people. We feel you. In this episode, I sit down with Anna Shalfun in Pinedale, Wyoming to talk about building a positive lab culture, mentoring the next generation, and navigating the human side of a science career. When you meet her students, they rave about her supportive leadership, and today she's giving us the behind-the-scenes look into how she builds that. We uncover her path from undecided undergrad to co-op unit scientists, how to handle lab conflict, and advice for professors, students, and advisors alike. If you work with people, spoiler alert, you do, you're gonna want to hear this one.

Anna Chalfoun:

Yeah, so I was a biological science undergrad, and I think a lot of young folks that end up in wildlife didn't even realize that this was a potential career that one could pursue. And so I dabbled back and forth with different majors and thought I was going to be pre-vet, worked at a vet clinic at various points. And then in my junior year, I took this conservation biology class and I just kind of mind blown wide open, and I thought, wow, this is me, this is what I want to do. And so from there I got a wide variety of field experiences, uh, did my master's degree and then my PhD, and was able to land my dream job as a co-op unit scientist at the Wyoming Cooperative Fish and Wildlife Research Unit, which is part of the U.S. Geological Surveys CRU program, cooperative research units program.

Katie Perkins:

So today you're a professor and you've got this lab of students, and you're also still doing research of your own, or what does that look like?

Anna Chalfoun:

Yeah, as co-op unit scientists, we have three main foci in our jobs. One is to conduct research that meets the informational needs of our state and federal cooperators. And the next is to help train the next generation of wildlife biologists, and the third is to provide technical assistance also to our cooperators. So I would say that the student part of it is the most rewarding and meaningful part of that, of course, in combination with getting to do science that, of course, we're all very passionate about.

Katie Perkins:

Right. And that's exactly what we're here to talk about today is that process of training new wildlife professionals, creating labs, and being in, you know, a university setting, and all of the tips and tricks and advice and fails and lessons that we've learned along the way of training that next generation. So did you always want to be a mentor?

Anna Chalfoun:

It's funny because I was not one of those young people that, you know, when I was six years old, I said, I want to be a professor. Absolutely not. For me, it was along the way, I just tried to be true to myself and I tried different things and I said yay or nay along the way. And that's why I think getting experiential experiences, sorry, that's redundant, but along the way, in a in addition to your academic course of training, is really, really critical. And and to me at least, too, those experiential opportunities are what really stuck to my bones and were very influential in guiding me to what I was really passionate about and what I found meaningful.

Katie Perkins:

Do you have a story from one of those experiences you're talking about that kind of sticks out in your head? Gosh, they all really do.

Anna Chalfoun:

So I got my start doing a research experience for undergraduates in Cape Cod, Massachusetts, studying bivalve growth. So two species of clams, and how they grew in relation to different levels of nutrient loading in three different estuaries. And that is a bit far off from where I ended up, but that just goes to show you that some of these fundamental skills, that, for example, was an experience that made me clued into, oh wow, I really love this process of science. And then after that, I tried some more terrestrial opportunities because I realized there might be more opportunities in terrestrial systems. And really, I was just passionate about the natural world in general and animals in the wild. So I think almost any experience relevant to where you think you might end up, you will learn and you will get your feet wet, and they can all be really valuable.

Katie Perkins:

Yeah, we hear that all the time. So that's definitely definitely true, and such a key piece of advice that you should really take to heart. How about some advice for maybe young professors just starting out? What does that process look like of becoming a professor?

Anna Chalfoun:

Oh my gosh. The irony in this topic is that unlike, so I have friends that are elementary and high school teachers, and they go through a really rigorous process of certification and training of how to teach for those jobs. And hopefully this will give people out there a little bit of grace for faculty in the sense that most of us do not go through any sort of technical training for some of these really critical skills, which is how do you build a lab? How do you do grants management? How do you select students? How do you deal with interpersonal conflicts? Because that's common, right? It's not a bad thing, it's just normal. And so a lot of that is if you happen to have really good mentors, if you are somebody that is open to seeking advice, talking to people that have gone through the things that you aspire to do. And then a lot of it is learning along the way. Definitely.

Katie Perkins:

So let's get into that. Let's get into, you know, what advice you might have for them. So step one, you become a professor and you've got do you have the money to hire a graduate student, or is that something that you're going to go out and write grants for? And then you start the graduate student process.

Anna Chalfoun:

It really depends on your position. So typical faculty lines will be given some startup packages or a startup package. One advice, particularly, I will say, for young female professionals that tend not to advocate for themselves as strongly sometimes as males, is that don't take the first offer and really think carefully about what you need to successfully establish and build your lab and ask for that as long as it's reasonable is one really key point of advice. And then again, be true to yourself in terms of what makes sense for the structure and composition of your lab. What are the main research thrusts that you are super passionate about and which do you want to tackle first? And how do you navigate that with your teaching load? And yeah, it's a it's a little complicated and context dependent, but I guess those are some things that come first to mind.

Katie Perkins:

Yeah, definitely. Figure out where your priorities are and what you need and go from there. So let's say you've done that, you you know what you're gonna research, you've got some money. Now you just put out your very first posting for a graduate student. What are we doing now?

Anna Chalfoun:

Yeah, so one uh wonderful thing about some time into the faculty experience is that you will learn the type of people with which you are the most compatible and the types of traits in students that you look for. And over time as well, you will have people seeking out you as an advisor without even having to advertise. Even now, however, I still, when I do advertise for graduate positions, I can get, you know, a hundred applicants, which in some ways is kind of heartbreaking, right? Because that means there are a lot of people that are passionate about the wildlife field, and we don't necessarily have those graduate positions or jobs afterwards for that matter. But I really have honed in on the types of things that I look for in a student. And one thing I think is super helpful to me that I now do for every incoming student is I bring them to the campus of University of Wyoming. I have them meet with me individually, get some one-on-one. I have them meet with my students individually and maybe some other students and faculty in the department and the program. And then we also do some sort of social activity together, whether it's, you know, a potluck at my house or going out to a local establishment or something. And that gives me, in combination with the students' record and their interview, et cetera, a really good sense for will this person fit into my lab? And I really personally strive to have a collaborative, supportive, almost family-like lab atmosphere. And so we really want to sustain that. And so having that person come and interact with everyone really helps keep that going.

Katie Perkins:

Right. I think you know, you are signing on and these students are signing on to spend, you know, anywhere from two to six years together. That's a really, really that's like a committed relationship that you're you're seeking, you're uh, you know, testing the waters for. And so talking from a student side of things, what should the student be looking for in a potential advisor and then maybe flip-flop it and tell me, you know, what kind of specific traits are you looking for in a student?

Anna Chalfoun:

I love this question. It really hits home because I feel like I was one of those people that didn't understand what some of us now refer to as the hidden curriculum, which is things like applying for a master's program or a PhD for that matter, is not the same as applying for undergraduate programs. Really, at that point, the key thing is to establish a connection with a potential advisor. If you have that, a lot of other things will fall into place, but you can't just expect to send out a random forum letter to every single potential advisor and program and expect that you're gonna hit the jackpot. So you really need to think about what sorts of questions really interest you. Are you interested in animal behavior? Are you interested in what drives population growth? Are you interested in patterns of biodiversity? Really try to think those things through. Do some reading of the primary literature, look up some of the, at least some of the key papers that have come out of that person's lab. And it, like you said, it's a two-way street. It's a huge commitment on both parties. And so, even really important before you make a final decision to get the real skinny from those current or previous lab members of that professor to make sure that that really makes sense in terms of a fit and your personalities and your goals and what you know you need from a mentor. Because there's, let's face it, a lot of variation in people's mentoring styles.

Katie Perkins:

Right. You talk about developing those relationships. Where should students be seeking out opportunities to connect with people and academics and to learn more about these? Or should they go to conferences? Should they be a part of local societies? Like what should they be doing?

Anna Chalfoun:

I definitely think that becoming involved with a society like TWS, if wildlife is your interest early, because that can really start to provide a community of support for you. Societies like TWS have really done that for me, and it makes things a lot more fun, and you definitely feel like you have this network of people to bounce ideas off or get their advice and their experiences. Also, there are some. So I did that as an undergrad, and I was told when I got selected for a master's program and I had a two-year fellowship that she said one of the things that that helped me stand apart was that I I got a small publication as an undergraduate. It might seem like a small thing, but it's a big thing for that stage. Right. And of course, there there is an advantage for people that happen to have good undergraduate mentors, but you can be proactive too if you don't have that, really try to seek that out, go to professors' office hours and say, hey, do you have advice? I think I'm interested in in this avenue of wildlife research. What advice do what do I really need to do to start building that resume and towards things like graduate school?

Katie Perkins:

So let's say you know you've got a student coming to visit. You say you have hundreds of applications sometimes. What makes a standout applicant for you?

Anna Chalfoun:

I think one thing to be very mindful about is when you craft, for example, your cover letter in response to an opportunity, is really make that tailored towards that person's lab line of research. Maybe if it's a specific position that they are offering, really do your research. So don't just send the same old form cover letter. And I've unfortunately had some people that even forgot to change the, you know, dear Professor Smith. And it's like, well, that's it's an immediate turnoff, right? That's maybe an egregious example, but really do your research. Go into the primary literature to show that you have some understanding for what that project might look like. Really think as deeply as you can at that stage about what you think you might be interested in. Again, maybe you are only interested in a particular taxon. Maybe you're only interested in studying bears. That's fine. Like be true to yourself. You might need to be a little flexible to get to those ultimate goals. But even more importantly, what's going to be impressive to a potential advisor is that you've thought about who you are and what sorts of research questions really motivate you. Again, is it behavior, is it populations, is it biodiversity, is it management, is it harvest, et cetera, et cetera?

Katie Perkins:

Yeah. So you make it through the stage, you pick your graduate student, you start working, everything's all fine and dandy, but eventually conflict arises because we're only humans. What is your advice for when conflict starts to bubble up? What do you do as a professor and what would you recommend students to do?

Anna Chalfoun:

Yeah, I think that in life in general, not in just in our field, the interpersonal stuff is, I guess I'll just say for me, is some of the most challenging things that that we deal with. And I think some of this comes with mindfulness and the extent to which you really think things through in terms of skills to deal with conflict. And that it's funny that we're talking about this because that is another thing that we are not trained to do. One of the most wonderful workshops I ever took was a couple of years ago at this the Wyoming chapter of the Wildlife Society conference. There was a really wonderful workshop by Tara Koypers focused on how to manage conflict in a positive way. And one of the skills that she taught us was pause, breathe, and get curious. And I know it sounds really simple, but I'm forever grateful for that half-day workshop in terms of we all can get frustrated at times and stressed out and spread thin. And that really can give you that skill to go, okay, pause, breathe, get curious. Instead of maybe getting confrontational, ask people questions about the situation. And this is, of course, all maybe easier said than done, but it's it's I think it's something that I will work on myself for the rest of my life and not saying that it's easy.

Katie Perkins:

Right. I think a lot for a lot of scientists too, they're so analytical and problem-solving that as soon as something arises, they want to get to the bottom of it. And and that's such great advice of like you need to take a step back and try to see the problem from multiple angles before you you develop a game plan because you know sometimes you just need some time to cool off. I know that I get into little tips here and there, and and I really, you know, I they just caught me at a bad time, and I just needed to take a step back and and see that.

Anna Chalfoun:

Yeah, well said. And and try the pausing helps you get that context and maybe start to see things from another person's perspective.

Katie Perkins:

What is your balance between structure and guidance and independence with your graduate students?

Anna Chalfoun:

Yeah, and I'm sure you will hear a lot of career or late career people say that the reality is that every student, every person is so unique in their needs, their strengths, their challenges. And so part of my role as I see it is when I'm getting to know a new student, trying to get a flavor for what are their natural strengths, where do they need that extra guidance? And I do not have one specific menu for every student. It's what do you feel like you need to be successful? You tell me what you need, and I will make it happen. If you need to have a scheduled meeting with me every week, that's fine. If you want more freedom, and that's particularly more for the established students that are just off and rolling. I don't maybe I won't even connect with them for a couple of weeks, although I feel like I genuinely appreciate regular communication no matter how. And those are the relationships that I value the most is when we still are getting together and talking ideas. And even if things are going well, it's I mean, that's really the fun part of it too, right?

Katie Perkins:

Definitely. That's so important to remember that. We're all unique, we're all different, and you know, you can kind of have these base principles, but you really do just have to have that period where you're learning each other and and understanding what's happening.

Anna Chalfoun:

Absolutely.

Katie Perkins:

In that period, well, I guess you know, you've had many students over the years, and the ones that I've met have said that it's a very positive experience to be in your lab. So, what you know steps or initiatives are you setting up from day one, no matter who is in your lab, that help foster that environment? Are you getting together regularly? And um, do you have group chats? Do you encourage your other students to become friends with each other and collaborate with each other? What does that look like?

Anna Chalfoun:

Yeah. So I think the first step is like we talked earlier, is any new folks that you bring into that mix to have them vetted in terms of interacting with all of us to be able to try on whether it makes sense for to bring this person into the fold. The other thing that I will do is I give my students some ownership in that decision. Of course, I ultimately get veto power, but generally we are on the same page in terms of like, oh yeah, it seems like this person would be a great fit. They seem to have whatever characteristics that fit this opportunity. The other thing that we do is we have weekly lab meetings, and I insist that those be student focused and led. So I don't dictate to the students, hey, here's what we're doing this semester in lab meeting. It's no, let's get together in the beginning of each semester, talk about what's going on with everybody. Some semesters we will choose a topic and follow that through with each other. Maybe we haven't done this yet, but we've talked about maybe having that culminate in a manuscript together. Other than that, students will take a particular week and they will focus that lab session on whatever is current and relevant for them. And I really try to give them the ownership of that process and that time. And I also encourage our lab to be good citizens, to attend departmental seminars, to meet with invited speakers, participate in socials where it makes sense. Yeah. And then we try to get together in a fun context every now and then. I think that's really important. And certainly to celebrate when people in the lab have successes, have defenses, uh defend their thesis or their dissertation or pass their comps, etc. That really makes it more fun to have that sense of family and community in the lab.

Katie Perkins:

Yeah. Oftentimes a lot of these students are coming out of state. I think that's way more common for graduate degrees is for students to be coming from all over. So to create, like it's really on the professor and the, you know, the leader of the lab to create these community spaces where students can feel safe and can thrive.

Anna Chalfoun:

Absolutely. I uh my students come from all over the country. So that's a very good point.

Katie Perkins:

Yeah. Yeah. My my short stint in a lab as an undergrad. Every year we went to the corn maze, and I just remember being so frightened as an undergrad. But it by the end of the night, it was so lovely. I actually knew these graduate students that I'd be seeing in and out. And because obviously I was a communications student trying to learn undergraduate research. So I was really sticking out like a store thumb. And that's why activities and things like this are so, so important. I'm a firsthand example of how important it is to drop the science, drop the education, and remember that we're all people, we all want to connect. We all want these a space where we can feel seen and feel heard.

Anna Chalfoun:

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And that reminds me that it's also nice to have diversity of stages within the lab. So maybe you have, and everyone has their own preferences in terms of that composition, but you know, you can have undergrad researchers or interns, uh, definitely field assistants or lab assistants. And then you have master's students and you have PhD students and you can have postdocs. And so it can be very nice to have a nice mix of that hierarchy so that people can also learn from their peers and not just completely rely on me or or other committee members, et cetera.

Katie Perkins:

And then that's another great opportunity. We talk about, you know, we're not trained in these things, but if you're creating a lab environment where this flow of knowledge is going up and down, then you're giving them leadership skills, you're giving them teaching opportunities. And if they do decide to pursue academics, then you know, you've set up a better professor for that. And that what an impact that professors and lab leaders can really have on this profession.

Anna Chalfoun:

Yeah. And that reminds me to say that I really think that some of the most, for lack of a better word, successful graduate students are maybe the ones that get the most out of the experience are those that dive in in all avenues. So graduate school is so much more than taking classes. At that stage, you are working towards becoming actually more of a peer and a colleague and a collaborator. And a lot of times you're starting to question a lot of the things that maybe you were forced to memorize as an undergrad. And that's a process of science, right? It's like, have we really critically thought that through? And I think that's a real fun part of being a graduate student, but sometimes it's a little bit of an adjustment period from that undergrad to to graduate jury transition. It can be a little surprising to folks, and I have to explain to them like it's okay to really question and to think critically about these things. And but that can be a really fun process to dive into and also really taking advantage of all the opportunities outside of classes, outside of your lab. Take advantage of a lot of departments. I would say most, if not all, have, for example, a guest seminar speaker series. Those can be some real sharp up-and-coming researchers that that give seminars. Those can be some really well-established people in the field. Go and listen and ask questions and participate and sign up to meet with people. If not individually, then if your lab is not slated to meet with that person, recommend that. Dive in, be engaged, go to conferences if you're able to present your work, get involved in research if you're interested in research early, be curious. I think that's a huge part of success in our field, is being curious.

Katie Perkins:

Definitely. What's something you wish you maybe would have known before developing your lab?

Anna Chalfoun:

Before developing my lab. Oh my gosh, I wish I knew all the things. I wish I knew myself better at the time. I I wish I had more training in really fundamental things like navigating diverse personalities and various forms of conflict because, like we discussed earlier, it's inevitable and it's not, it's not an abnormal thing. It's just how do you, particularly if you're stressed out and spread thin, how do you navigate those situations with grace? I feel like I'm gonna be learning new skills forever and ever. Yeah, there's so many skills that are part of our jobs, and we're just doing the best we can with what we know at the time, right? Right.

Katie Perkins:

So knowing all that you know now at your stage here, what advice can you give? Like, is there any piece of advice that you find yourself giving out time and time again?

Anna Chalfoun:

Yeah, I guess just really emphasizing that curiosity and diving in, not being passive, really going after what you want. I think one thing to keep in mind when you are a prospective student looking for opportunities, faculty I mean, most people were extremely spread thin, right? I obtain probably four inquiries per week throughout the year of people potentially interested in my lab. When I do advertise for particular positions, again, there can be 50 to 100 applications. And so, again, really thinking hard about what makes you tick, getting that experience outside of your academic environment, diving in, being curious, and articulating that you've really thought about what that lab focuses on and doing your research in terms of those publications relative to the lab and the type of work that's done there, and making sure that you're a good fit in that particular lab.

Katie Perkins:

Definitely. And for professors, what advice can you give them? Oh my goodness.

Anna Chalfoun:

That's this is I don't know why I I just struggle with this more than who am I to give advice to other professors, right? Because we're we're all very unique and we all have different goals and different research foci. But I definitely Think that people talk about work-life balance, which I think is important, making sure that you're finding environments that work for you. One inside scoop is that I didn't necessarily know as a young professional that I was going to end up in academia. In fact, some of the things that I observed as a graduate student made me think that maybe that wasn't the life for me because I didn't want to be in an environment that wasn't supportive and that maybe was too competitive because I already put a lot of pressure on myself. But there are particular departments or universities or places that place a greater emphasis on collegiality and supporting one another instead of that competitive side of things. And so being really mindful about the environment in which you feel like you're going to thrive.

Katie Perkins:

That's really great. Well, Anna, thank you so much. This was really awesome. And we really appreciate having you on the podcast. Thank you so much, Katie. Thanks for joining us on the Our Wild Lives Podcast. If you're ready to dive deeper into wildlife science, explore new career paths, or grow your personal network, visit us at wildlife.org. Follow at the Wildlife Society on social media, and subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss out on a new episode. We'll catch you next week with more stories from the wild.