Our Wild Lives

How Hunting Helps Wild Turkey Recovery

• The Wildlife Society

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A century ago, wild turkeys were a rare sight in many parts of the United States. Populations were estimated to be 200,000 or less across the country. Through science-based conservation and management, education, and sound policy, the National Wild Turkey Federation (NWTF) helped grow turkey (Meleagris gallopavo) populations to over 6 million.  

In this episode, Katie Perkins and Ed Arnett of The Wildlife Society join Mark Hatfield, former national director of science and planning, Jen Davis, hunting and shooting R3 coordinator for Michigan and Teresa Carroll, education and outreach program coordinator of the NWTF at turkey camp to share how their work has contributed to this remarkable recovery.  

Through a mentored hunt, we learn what it took to bring wild turkey populations back from the brink and the role hunting can play in wildlife conservation. 

Learn more: 

The National Wild Turkey Federation: https://www.nwtf.org/

Mark Hatfield: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hatfield-mark/

Jen Davis: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennifer-davis-29a30817b/

Teresa Carroll: https://www.linkedin.com/in/teresa-carroll-06912725/

NWTF Programs - https://www.nwtf.org/who-we-are/programs-outreach

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[00:00:05] Katie Perkins: A quick note before we begin. This episode was previously recorded, and Mark has since moved into a new role at the Rough Grouse and American Woodcock Society, but please enjoy his wealth of experience from spending over 20 years at the National Wild Turkey Federation.

Okay, now onto the episode.

How does hunting fit into modern wildlife management, and what role do conservation nonprofits play? In this episode, we talk turkey with our friends at the National Wild Turkey Federation. We dig into their history, their boots on the ground conservation efforts, and the big picture role hunters play in wildlife restoration.

You'll also hear about my first turkey hunt. Spoiler alert, there were some missed shots, and we get real about the importance of community and partnerships in conservation. This is the Our Wild Lives Podcast, brought to you by The Wildlife Society.

[00:01:08] Ed Arnett: So Mark, you're the. National Director of Science and Planning been with the Turkey Federation 20 years. Tell us a little bit about Turkey Federation's history and what we were doing here was a partner hunt. You've been doing those for quite a while. Why don't you tell us about Turkey Federation and then these partner hunts.

[00:01:24] Mark Hatfield: Pleasure to be here today having this conversation, 'cause again, it's really about partnerships and relationships, but a little bit about the NWTF is that we were founded in 1973, really focused on the conservation of wild turkey and preservation of our hunting heritage. In 1973, there were about 1.3 million turkeys across the country.

So over the years, we've invested over a half a billion dollars into wildlife conservation through habitat. I mpacted nearly 25 million acres on the ground. And we've also have the benefit of having the dual mission of really focusing on hunting heritage, introducing people to hunting, trying to remove barriers, and really have that outdoor experience, 'cause we think that's really a hand in gloves when you think about conservation. You have to have hunting in it from our perspective. And so over the years, we've been really focused on that, growing those programs. And one thing we always try to do is build relationships with partners because we have to have trust in the system.

And so what we end up doing is we utilize these partner hunts, kinda like our golf course. We're able to bring people in. Over the years, uh, since I've been here for 20 years, we've done these almost every year in some capacity or the other to. With industry, with conservation partners, with introductory hunts or mentored hunts.

And so this year we've got you all out here really to kind of build a relationship, understand what hunting is, understand the comradery it creates, and also understand how it's done correctly. Why it's done and what tool it is when it comes to wildlife management. 

[00:02:57] Ed Arnett: Yeah, and everybody should know The Wildlife Society has positions on responsible human use, responsible hunting, but sustainable harvest management is a key component of, of Wildlife management broadly, so this meshes up really nice. 

[00:03:11] Mark Hatfield: Yeah, and you can't have conservation without hunting . You know, I mean, it's multiple use, it's wise use, and so we feel like it's a funding source for wildlife conservation and we've gotta turn the tide on the number of hunters we have. We gotta recruit, retain, reactivate with the R three movement that we've got going on as well.

[00:03:27] Ed Arnett: Well, and that half a billion dollars that you mentioned helps all kinds of different species with the habitat conservation efforts that you do. 

[00:03:34] Mark Hatfield: Yeah, I mean it's, it's interesting because. All the work we're doing, it's never a turkeys only project. You know, it's turkeys is the building upon the passion we have with our volunteers, building upon their interest and their focus of hunting, but non-game, game, endangered species, any leverage we can have to do great conservation work, we're gonna take advantage of it. 

[00:03:55] Ed Arnett: So Jen, tell us about your role at the Turkey Federation, because we have a new hunter here with us. You focus on that quite a bit, don't you? 

[00:04:01] Jen Davis: Yeah, I do. So my title is The Hunting and Shooting R three Coordinator for the State of Michigan. And what that means is that I work to recruit, retain, and reactivate hunters and folks interested in shooting sports as well all over the state of Michigan.

So we participate in a lot of mentored hunts and, and things like this, like a hunt camp to keep people engaged. But we also help out schools that are trying to start archery in the school program and things like that. So it's a pretty diverse program, but really engaging folks on all those hunting and shooting ways of getting outdoors and appreciating the resource and understanding why it's good to engage in those conservation activities and to vote on conservation policy as well as spending money on things that feed into that conservation funding. 

[00:04:49] Ed Arnett: Great. We're gonna come back to that and get to Katie and hear about her first experience hunting. But Theresa, tell us about your role. 

[00:04:56] Teresa Carroll: I have been with the Turkey Federation almost 18 years in May, and I started to work with the Turkey Federation in the education and outreach program, specifically the women in the outdoors program.

So my role now is to work on a national level through our programs. We have three that have been part of NWTF since 1980. We have the Jakes program, which is for our youth. We have women in the outdoors, obviously for ladies, and we also have the Wheelin' Sportsman program. We have added to that over the years.

Uh, with R three coming on board, we have a lot of mentored hunts for families. We do mentored hunts for collegiate. We have a lot of collegiate opportunities and we're just trying to engage folks. So I work with our local and state NWTF chapters to help them plan and facilitate these type of events all over the country.

So my main goal is working with our volunteers who are so passionate about NWTF and getting folks outdoors . 

[00:06:06] Ed Arnett: Volunteers for organizations like yours and Mule Deer Foundation, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation. Many others. That volunteer component is absolutely critical, isn't it? 

[00:06:16] Mark Hatfield: So we have about a half a million members around the country, or I'm sorry, a quarter million members.

Wish we had a half a million members right now. Stretch goal. That's our stretch goal, and it is actually a stretch goal for us over the next 10 years to get to a half a million because that raises our voice and we can be more influential when it comes to public policy and conservation policy. But as we sit today, we have about a quarter million members around the country, and we have a volunteer system that actually runs our events around the country.

So not all members are volunteers, but all of our volunteers are members. And so we have fundraising events where we generate the funding, which allows us to invest that into conservation, into hunting, heritage, and outreach and education programs. But we couldn't do the work without 'em. They're invaluable for us because they lead our state efforts, they lead our local efforts.

They're within the communities. They're working with the banks and the car dealerships and all the local businesses that support hunting, and they're talking to them and they're getting donations. And so it's this network of influence is really there. And so that volunteer base drives the machine for funding for us organizationally.

And so it's, it's critical for us. And without 'em, we couldn't do the work we're doing. We really owe our success to them and we owe our success to our partnerships. 

[00:07:32] Katie Perkins: We'll be right back after this short break. Love Wildlife? Join The Wildlife Society to connect with a community of professionals working to advance wildlife science and conservation. Membership gives you access to exclusive resources, job boards, publications like The Wildlife Professional, discounts, and networking opportunities across North America. Learn more and join today at wildlife.org/join. 

[00:07:59] Ed Arnett: So my co-host Katie, got to go on her very first hunt.

[00:08:04] Katie Perkins: Sure did.

[00:08:05] Ed Arnett: And it was a wild turkey hunt here in northern Nebraska. Why don't you tell us what you thought of your experience?

[00:08:11] Katie Perkins: We've had a, a really awesome week. The weather's been amazing and we've been hearing and seeing so many turkeys and so we've been hunting for, we had two days of hunting, and I was able to harvest my first bird on the first day just as we were packing up to leave. And so I've always grown up around people who hunt and the outdoors and conservation, but it was never an opportunity that I had myself.

And so that's why I'm so thankful for NWTF for programs like this for getting women and new hunters out into the field. Because, you know, I'm an adult now and this was my very first time shooting a shotgun and sitting in a blind and wearing camo, and so it was just a really, really phenomenal experience to be able to come out here and really learn and, and get rid of some of those stigmas that I think I had been holding against hunting because I am a conservationist and I do care deeply about wildlife and wildlife conservation and, and to be able to see that they're really is an opportunity and that hunting does fit in with that. That has been really eyeopening and it was a whirlwind of emotions. You know, the first time I saw the turkey come out in front of us and I actually, full transparency, missed twice on my first bird that I had the opportunity. 

[00:09:26] Ed Arnett: Hadn't shot it before.

Yeah. Stock was a little short. Uhhuh. 

[00:09:30] Katie Perkins: Yeah. So, you know, I learned, I, I learned that I was. Thinking about how to shoot a gun all wrong, the very first time. 

[00:09:35] Ed Arnett: Well, we, we were able to talk it through in the blind, right? And I asked you a few questions about what you saw, and you were able to kind of focus on the decoy and practice it, and it worked out really well.

[00:09:45] Katie Perkins: Yeah, definitely. Well, 

[00:09:46] Mark Hatfield: Katie, I know I shared this earlier, everybody's missed a turkey. Yes. And so you just got it outta the way early. And then that way it's done. You don't have to worry about it anymore. But I've missed turkeys. I know Ed's missed turkeys. I mean, it's just, 

[00:09:58] Jen Davis: I miss turkeys too. Yeah. 

[00:09:59] Mark Hatfield: Yeah. I mean, we've all missed turkeys except for Theresa.

She's kind of the dead eye over there. But every, if you hunt long enough and you hunt enough, you're going to miss a turkey. But the thing is, is that's an okay process. You learn from it, you correct it, and then you understand you want to have that most ethical harvest. Could we wanna maintain that? But you know that that's an okay process and, and the stigma that somebody says, oh, you, you're not a hunter if you miss a turkey, everybody misses a Turkey or an animal. I mean, it's just anyone that says that properly. Everybody that says that is probably not being real honest. Right? But maybe they are. Maybe they're just better hunters than I am, but that's a, that's a greats, maybe not hunters. Yeah. That's a, you know, that's just part of the process, you know?

[00:10:37] Katie Perkins: Right. And they were clean misses too, so it was still, he did, he didn't even know what was happening and he just heard a bang. And, I mean, the shot was so far over his head, it was not coming close. So we mi missed that one. And then had some more time in the blind, and right as we were getting ready to pack up, I was standing up to put my vest on and I spotted another group of jakes coming through the trees.

And so we were able to call 'em over and it was a tricky shot. There was a group of three and they were not wanting to break up. And then finally, right as. You know, the light's going down. I'm getting worried. I missed my first one, and then finally one of 'em breaks away and I was able to make a clean shot.

I felt really proud of myself for having that failure earlier in the day and being able to come back out and stay there and, and maintain being patient and just really be able to correct those mistakes. So it was a really rewarding moment and I'm excited to have some meat in the fridge or the freezer and, you know, learn the other part of hunting, which is how to use the meat and how to use, you know, we've got the feathers and things of that nature. So I'm really excited to figure out how to bring that part of it into my life as well. 

[00:11:40] Ed Arnett: Jen, in all of your work, is this a fairly typical story that you hear from first time hunters?

[00:11:46] Jen Davis: Yes, especially if they've got this kind of support, you know, like having the community with you and being able to process through those misses with someone. Um, I think when people try to do it on their own, or if they do it without a supportive community, with a community that's a little bit more pushy, maybe they could have those misses and feel like quitting.

And so having that support network, which is, you know, what we do like, that's what we try to create when we build events, is to have some kind of support network there so that when you're learning, we can reassure you that this is something that happens and help you walk through the process of continuing on in order to have a success and really supporting you too, and defining your success, right?

Like you harvested a bird, but you know, if that, if that wasn't your goal, if you wanted to come out here to see the landscape and to see the beauty, and to hear the birds, and see the birds, that's a valid form of success too. And so I think the way that you talk through what you experienced, it is typical in a supportive environment.

But we do hear from people who don't have supportive environments who are coming back and given it a second shot because maybe when they were kids, they went out with somebody who put a little too much pressure on 'em and. And so, yeah, I think it's important to be aware that it can go a different way, and so we try to avoid that if we can.

So I'm glad that you had that experience with us. 

[00:13:00] Ed Arnett: That's a really important point because I've told you guys who my mentor was when I was growing up. It was my grandfather and I learned all the ethics and, and just everything there was about how to hunt, but also how to hunt ethically, but also to just capture the experience and my experience is a lot of late onset hunters, people that started an adult didn't have. That kind of mentoring. Either that or maybe they had maybe a different Yeah. Approach or attitude about hunting or their family may have, but they didn't want to at that moment in time. 

[00:13:33] Mark Hatfield: I probably had a very similar process as you had Ed, is I was brought into a farming. My grandparents had a farm. I hunted and fish with my uncles and my cousins. My dad did not hunt. He still, to this day, does not hunt. But it was something that I had that pathway to, to work with my uncle and my cousin, and it was a passion I've been able to turn it into a career, but that was a progressional change for me.

Like I started out squirrel hunting and then I dove hunted and then, but. When individuals jump into this, turkey hunting is a, it's a larger animal. It's pressure 'cause you're seeing other people do it. You have all of these other things, but it's like, it's still progressional. You know? If you would've come out here, any of us come out here and said, you know, harvesting a bird for me on this trip wasn't the priority.

It was the conversations. It was getting to know people. It was to really just have man an experience. 'Cause Katie, you mentioned preparing the food when you sit down and you share your meal with somebody. With your family or anybody else, you're gonna, you're gonna know, man, this was cool and you're gonna retell the stories.

That's the ultimate outcome of a hunt, really. It is. You know, I'll go back and, you know, Ed, we've known each other for 20 years, but we're gonna share this hunt forever, you know, in conversations and, and laughs and stories. And so it's all those things. And Theresa, before you came to work for the Turkey Federation, you weren't a hunter and so, and now you're actually helping build programs with our volunteers and members to create programming for new hunters. So that's a pretty neat experience because you understand kind of the emotions that they were going through. 

[00:15:03] Teresa Carroll: Absolutely. I'm a little bit like Katie. I grew up in a home where no one, I didn't have the opportunity to hunt either, so I never hunted until I started to work for The Turkey Federation and you know, learning the, the things to do and not to do, especially with safety. You know, that's a big thing with me, making sure that those who participate in any of our programs are safe, especially our mentored hunts, and knowing how to properly mentor someone like you did with Katie., when you missed the bird, you know, you didn't scold her, you didn't make her feel like a failure.

[00:15:41] Ed Arnett: How did you miss that? It was right. Exactly. 

[00:15:44] Teresa Carroll: Exactly. And that 

[00:15:45] Ed Arnett: None of that going on. 

[00:15:46] Teresa Carroll: And you had that community that helped you. And I experienced if, if I can share this story, I experienced one time on a hunt and I was a very new hunter at this time, and I had someone sitting next to me who was my mentor at the time, and he was telling me to shoot a bird that I could not see, and I didn't make the shot. And when we got back to camp, he began to tell folks that I had an opportunity to shoot the bird and didn't take it. And I went back to work that day, the next day and I said, I don't wanna, I don't wanna hunt anymore. Hmm. So having someone that helps you mentor you and teaching you what's right and encouraging you along the way is so important in creating longstanding hunters 

[00:16:36] Mark Hatfield: Or individuals.You know, Katie, you may not become a hardcore turkey hunter, and that's perfectly all right, but you understand. As these things come up in ballots and policy and and a voice, you're gonna say, man, hunting is important. Hunting is good. It's not of that, that stigma that it's bad. So not everybody is gonna be a hunter, but our hope is that everybody start to understand that it has a place in conservation.

In conservation. Yep. And that's why our partnership with TWS has been so great. 'cause I've been a member, I was a student chapter president at Murray State when I was at graduate school. Uh, led the southeastern wildlife conclave, all of these pieces, and so I understand the importance of The Wildlife Society and that structure.

And so it's really rewarding for me from the standpoint of with me to rebuild and, and to really p ut the partnership with TWS on steroids as far as supporting the events and the chapters. 'cause research is so critical to the NWTF as well, and so that the connection's been great and it's been great to, to build upon that.

[00:17:38] Ed Arnett: Well, but that training too, because you hire, how many biologists do you hire? 

[00:17:42] Mark Hatfield: We've got about 75 professional, either foresters or biologists. And most of our foresters have dual degrees or they are forestry with a wildlife emphasis. Yeah. With an emphasis. You know, so we're, 'cause we're managing forests, not for timber production, we're managing forest for wildlife.

[00:17:59] Ed Arnett: Right. 

[00:18:00] Mark Hatfield: And so when we're doing that, so 

[00:18:01] Ed Arnett: Multiple objectives. 

[00:18:02] Mark Hatfield: Multiple objectives, and meeting the landowner with those objectives. So we encourage all of our staff to be members of The Wildlife Society. 

[00:18:09] Ed Arnett: I think most of 'em are I, I think uh, one of your, one of your biologists told me that they felt, they were very proud that all of the biologists were members of TWS.

Yeah. A good chunk of 'em are certified. 

[00:18:21] Mark Hatfield: That, that's a great thing because we feel like it's just the next step. And so it's a great process. It's a great partnership, you know, and again, I think being the voice of hunters, which we have because of our dual mission. Gives us that opportunity as well. You know, we're, we're unique when you think about the other groups for that, not to say we're any better, but we're just, we approach things differently.

[00:18:42] Ed Arnett: Well, and that's the critical nature of our relationship with all of our partners, including NWTF, is giving the skillset, the leadership skills, the talents to work with landowners and federal agencies and all these diverse entities that we have to work with and the public on any given day to explain wildlife conservation, to explain science. I think that's the real joy of these partnerships is that we work, 

[00:19:07] Mark Hatfield: Yeah, information is power and then you can influence and you can, if you're more diverse with your education, from our perspective, you have the ability to really connect with landowners, public landowners, agencies, private landowners, and and hunters and say, man, this is why we're doing this.

And I think if you can do that, then you're gonna be successful. 

[00:19:26] Ed Arnett: My experience, particularly with late onset hunters is. The experience is far more important than the harvest itself, but just that understanding of, you know, I'm explaining stuff all the time. Okay, you see that fire scar, you know that probably burned five years ago.

You just immerse yourself in a landscape and you see things a little differently. You're looking through a different lens. I can tell you Katie's got Eagle Eyes, she was seeing all kinds of stuff. Not that might have gotten any better over the years, but I mean, she was really picking up on stuff. But just being out there and, I mean we were seeing all kind ravens hassling a, a red tail hawk and just all kinds of things were happening and you just see the world through a different lens when you're out there, don't you?

[00:20:11] Katie Perkins: Yeah, I was gonna touch on that too, of just, you know, I spend time in the outdoors, but never the amount and undisturbed amount of time that I did this weekend, sitting in a blind, waiting for a turkey to come. And there's so much to be learned in those times when there are no turkeys around, is something that I, I really am gonna take away from this is getting to see, like hearing the geese come by and then seeing all the different birds that would come and, you know, you would, you or Jen would say, oh, that's what this is and this is what, why it's doing that. And that was just as valuable as the hunt itself was the time spent outdoors, not hunting. And so I, you know, for that fact alone, I think you're right in that I'd like to go on hunts. I maybe don't need to be the one to pull the trigger every time, but I now know that something that I love to do, which is be outdoors and be around wildlife.

The hunting is the perfect avenue for that, even if I'm not actually harvesting anything, 

[00:21:04] Ed Arnett: You're a human set of binoculars. I'll tell you that the things you were seeing, most new hunters or just new people in spending lots of time in the outdoors, you don't pick up on everything that's standing on the hillside.

I was very impressed. 

[00:21:17] Mark Hatfield: We had a interesting thing happen for us. We were, me, Jen, and Teresa, we were sitting at the base of one, the same tree, and we had birds gobbling all around us. And there were two squirrels sitting out in front of us, barking on the ground, just playing and barking and everything else being noisy.

And we had a bird, we had a couple birds getting closer. And when those birds got to the top of the hill, the squirrels jumped up into the tree and one of us said, the turkeys are coming, because those squirrels vacated the spot where the turkeys were coming to. And so you, you've learned to pick up all those little critter habits and stuff.

And you know, we saw kestrels, we saw geese. You learn when you're walking and you hear a crow call, you stop 'cause there's gonna be a bird that could gobble. That's how we heard bird yesterday. Right? We, they weren't responding to our calls, but we could hear one gobble then they started gobbling to thunder Yeah.

That we had out there. So those are all the things that you're like, oh, okay. And, and I'm able to recreate that. I got a 13-year-old son and so he's instinctively seeing me stop to listen for the crow call when it crow calls, and I stop and he goes, why are you stopping? I asked my uncle that 35 years ago when we started turkey hunting, he taught me that, you know, so you there's, but I don't know if he said do this, but I just instinctively started to do it.

So that's the process that's just so cool about these experiences and, you know, it's, we're really proud to be able to provide these opportunities and to, to be leaders within this group because you're gonna carry this on for the rest of your life as far as this experience and your family if, if you have children, all of those things, you're gonna say, yeah, I'm open to that. I'm comfortable with that, and that's really important to us as an organization. 

[00:23:01] Ed Arnett: Let's talk a little bit about the mission managing habitat and Turkey populations for those that didn't know, had there been an endangered species act back in, let's say 1905? I borrow this from my. My colleague and friend Shane Mahoney, if there had been an endangered species act like piece of legislation back in the early 19 hundreds, wild turkeys would've met all five listing criteria, no question, along with white tail deer, mule deer, black bear, all species of waterfowl.

All of those would have met that criteria, but we brought 'em back without any legislation specific to wild turkeys, and now they're, they're a very abundant game bird, widely distributed, liberally harvested. That is a huge conservation success story. Long before you guys were even an entity. 

[00:23:53] Mark Hatfield: Yeah. Yeah. So in the early 19 hundreds, it's estimated that there were about 200,000 turkeys. 

[00:23:59] Ed Arnett: Which isn't that many.

[00:23:59] Mark Hatfield: Which isn't that many. Spread across 34 states. 

[00:24:01] Ed Arnett: Spread across, yeah. 34 states. 

[00:24:03] Mark Hatfield: And so when you start thinking about, there are states that have been the stronghold for effort. So in the 1959, there was the first ever wild turkey symposium that was an aggregate of researchers and professionals that were saying, what's going on with turkeys? These are really neat animals. Let's figure this out. And so they started these research on the game just trying to understand what was going on with them, how the, you know, how many eggs did they have? What's the, just the basic, vital research that's going on. Then that jumpstarted that when we went 11 years, we had another symposium in 19 70, 1973, we had another one, and that's when we were founded, 1973.

And again, the turkey population had grown because of the game management. You know, just the conservation movements of North America allowed them to start growing again. But then we were like, okay, let's jumpstart this. Agencies tried to do pen-reared birds. They wanted to raise birds in a pen. They wanted to release these birds.

And honestly, we were serving up the pulps and the turkeys to predation, you know what I mean? They weren't survival because they're a precocial bird and they've gotta see the hen. And they're following the hen around, but learn to eat, you know, so it's, it just wasn't working. Then Duffy Holbrooke invented the cannon net in the low country of South Carolina, which had always had birds, and we started using the cannon net to trap wild birds from one state and move it to another, the other parts of the state.

Then other states said, Hey, could we get some of those bird, we don't have any, but we'd like turkeys. And so we created a system organizationally and through our technical committee, which is made up of state wildlife agency biologists. They then allowed us to start moving birds across state lines, and we were able to receive replacement costs for the trapping efforts.

Of course, you can't purchase wildlife, but we were able to create a system where we hold that money in escrow for the states and they can use that for land purchases or turkey management. We've been able to move. 200,000 turkeys across the country within states, and then over 20,000 across state lines to bolster this turkey population around the country. And that's how we've got to the 6.3, 6.4 million turkeys we have nationwide now. 

[00:26:14] Ed Arnett: Incredible success. 

[00:26:15] Mark Hatfield: And so. But that's all based on research too. We started doing research or through our organization in nine, in the late 1970s, and since that time we've invested over $10 million in wild Turkey research. All applied Turkey research that the state wildlife agencies need to do the work. 

[00:26:32] Ed Arnett: These are the kinds of stories I think we forget in today's world. Population of 200,000, driven to that level. Because of over hunting, market hunting and habitat manipulation. No question. Manipulation over, yeah. 

[00:26:46] Mark Hatfield: Timber harvest, all of these other things that were unregulated.

But there's some strongholds that Allegany State Park in New York was one of the hubs for where we used to move birds, eastern subspecies of turkeys. South Carolina, the low country, South Carolina, 'cause it was once thought that turkeys needed old growth forests to survive. That's what they needed because that was the only place they were found.

Sure that was like flash. But then they were like, oh no, they can live. They need disturbance. They need edge. They need forest management. They need prescribed burning. They need disturbance to create an insect base. Diverse floral fauna, ground cover. They need water and hydrology. They need the scarification of repairing areas in a great plains to generate cottonwoods.

I mean, they, all of these things, they're not a keystone species, but they are an indicator species of a highly functional forest. 

[00:27:36] Ed Arnett: Yeah. And that's the system, perfect interface of science informing management to bring a species on the brink to now where we have nearly 7 million plus or minus. They fluctuate.

[00:27:47] Mark Hatfield: Yeah. I mean, they fluctuate. You know, we. We've seen some declines and some instability in the population over the years, but we still have a lot of turkeys, right? We have a lot of turkey hunters. 

We have a sustainable system managed by law states in 49 states and 49 states. 49 states. 

[00:28:03] Ed Arnett: What's the one missing?

[00:28:04] Mark Hatfield: Alaska. Alaska. There's Rios. There's Rios on Hawaii. 

[00:28:08] Ed Arnett: Oh yeah. Probably introduced on the big island. 

They tried that with pronghorn too. That didn't, 

[00:28:12] Mark Hatfield: And that was prior to NWTF. But yeah, there, there are Rios on Hawaii and there's there. Turkeys in 49 states and many Canadian provinces. 

[00:28:21] Ed Arnett: I was gonna say, what, how about your work? Have you worked in Canada 

[00:28:24] Mark Hatfield: We have helped, um, move and establish hunting opportunities in Canada. They actually use a Turkey 101 class or a turkey hunting class. When you go to Ontario, you have to take the class before you can actually hunt, and it's an NWTF sanctioned program. We've worked in Mexico and moved birds from Mexico into Arizona to bolster that population. And so it's a continental wide effort for us to do this. And you impact so many different people and you hear stories. I mean, you could sit here all day and talk stories about people that really focus on turkeys and all the connectivity they have to. 

[00:29:02] Ed Arnett: Let's do a quick round, Robin and Jen through your lens working with NWTF. What gives you hope for the future of Turkeys and Habitat and the Turkey Federation? 

[00:29:12] Jen Davis: Wow, that's a big question. I will say also that I've only been with the Turkey Federation almost two years, so I'm still pretty new as a staff member, but what I see is this deep passion. For turkeys, not just for turkey hunting.

Like that's part of it for sure. That I think inspires that passion in a lot of people, but the love for the bird and the needs of that species, I think it translates into all different kinds of audiences. So we talked about the three Rs, right? Recruitment, retention, reactivation. But the fourth R is relevancy, which talks about why it's important to have hunting and to have these conservation efforts for people who, who aren't even interested in hunting or learning about hunting. And that piece I think gives me the biggest hope because I talk to people from land conservancies who might interface with people who want information about turkey hunting, and they want information about turkey habitat.

And they never really thought about hunting and its role in that. And I think that there is an interest, a curiosity, and I think if we approach lots of non-traditional audiences with that passion and that open conversation, there's hope for, for people who don't even necessarily care to hunt, but can see how important it is.

[00:30:30] Ed Arnett: What are your thoughts, Teresa? 

[00:30:32] Teresa Carroll: I echo everything that Jen just said. I have hope with the volunteer base that we have, the staff that we have, not just with the Turkey Federation, but abroad. We're doing the things that we need to be doing at the time to protect the wild turkey and our lifestyle. And one of the things I think about the most is all of these young people that are getting involved in learning how to hunt, not just the kiddos, but also young adults. A lot of them are coming on board and being able to pass that knowledge and experience onto others protects our hunting heritage. So I have hope lots of it. 

[00:31:18] Ed Arnett: Mark, what gives you hope? 

[00:31:20] Mark Hatfield: One, I, I can't, I'll probably start off with what Jen and Teresa said is that the, you know, one thing is I, I really do appreciate our volunteers and our members that are helping us deliver the mission and to give us the credibility around the country to do the work with partners.

But I'd probably focus on the professionals that we have in the field. The professionals saw a challenge in the sixties and seventies, eighties. To figure out how do we get turkeys on a landscape to create a restocking of turkeys into all suitable turkey habitat? And we were able to accomplish that through a program of Target 2000.

But it was the challenges and then the, the collective, I don't know, wherewithal of the wildlife professionals figured it out. You know, we've seen some history in the past months on budgets and structures and challenges. And really I, I've, I'm really optimistic that the wildlife professionals we have today are gonna be able to adapt and figure this out, you know?

And so that's probably where my hope is at because we work with so many passionate partners, so many passionate professionals that I think that's gonna be how we can get this done. And then I'll probably kick this over to Katie. You know, there's the fact that you are willing and wanting to come out here and to with three strangers. You didn't know us, we met on a phone call, and to come out here and to trust us, to put a shotgun in your hand to set you up for success, whatever success you determined and accept, that is to me really hopeful. That we have so many other people around the country that are willing to do that.

[00:33:00] Katie Perkins: Yeah, I think this weekend was just a perfect example of, of what your organization is all about. And in my experience firsthand of you're wanting to engage people in hunting and wanting to teach them about conservation through hunting, and, and that's just been a really, really special experience. So I can't thank you three enough for coming out and for Ed, for inviting me.

And I think that that's, that really does shine a light on what the National Wild Turkey Federation does and is about. And it's, it's not just talk. It's, you're on the, you're on the ground, you are here. I'm a living example of what you aim to do throughout the country. And so with that, if other people wanna have an experience like I've had, what's the best way for them to engage with the National Wild Turkey Federation?

[00:33:41] Mark Hatfield: Some of that's based on your geography, but we have a network of events around the country. You can go to nwtf.org and you can find your events that are the programs, which Teresa helps structure. We have numerous R three Coordinators around the country that are working in specific states, and we have one that's also working on a regional level in the Northeast, and those individuals are conducting programs.

They have women in outdoors events, or Jakes or wheelin' sportsmen, or even just mentored hunts. So check us out from that standpoint. If you're curious about turkey hunting. And our really wanting an experience. I would encourage you to come to our national convention. We just came off of an 82,000 individual.

82,000 people came to Nashville, Tennessee to learn anything and everything about turkey hunting. I've been going to those things for 20 years now. This was our largest ever. Everybody is in a good mood. Everybody's happy to see you. Everybody's welcoming. There's no judgment. It's just come in. Tell your experiences. If you're a first time Turkey hunter, you're gonna get invites if you raised your hand and said, I wanna go turkey hunting, somebody's gonna come over and probably take you Turkey hunting. So that's an experience there in Nashville. But honestly, it's just nwtf.org. We got programs for all ages levels, experience room for more volunteers.

We always need more volunteers because we want to grow and get to that half million members, and we need volunteers to help us do that. So that, that's the best route. And I'll turn it over to Teresa or Jen, anything I missed? 

[00:35:12] Jen Davis: I think that pretty well covers it. I think also looking for that contact information, if you have a local R three coordinator mm-hmm. Um, just in case you can't find an event that that suits what you're looking for, they can probably connect you with somebody or get you into a mentorship. 

[00:35:27] Mark Hatfield: Yeah. And for reach out to your state wildlife agency. Many of those have programs becoming an outdoor woman, take one, make one to come to mind. You know, they've got our three programs of themselves.

We're not the only game in town. Reach out to Pheasants, Quail Forever, reach out to Ducks Unlimited, Mule Deer. We want people to understand hunting. So using different,

[00:35:48] Ed Arnett: In conservation. 

[00:35:49] Mark Hatfield: In conservation. In conservation. So we're not the only game in town and we're partners with all those groups and we're not in competition with them. It's, we're building this collectively. 

[00:36:00] Ed Arnett: Well, thanks to all of you for being with us and uh, thanks for the great experience that both Katie and I had. National Wild Turkey Federation has been a great partner with The Wildlife Society and we'll keep working together to train new biologists, train, train the middle, and aging biologists alike, and work together for not just turkey, but wildlife conservation broadly.

[00:36:20] Katie Perkins: Hey, it's Katie. Thanks so much for listening to the Our Wild Lives podcast. If you're loving what you're hearing, could you help us out? Leaving us a review, rating our show or sharing it with a friend will help us continue to grow the Our Wild Lives podcast. If there's something in particular you wanna hear about, send us an email to comms@wildlife.org and we'll see if we can't find someone to bring on the show.

Thanks again for listening. We'll catch you next week.