Our Wild Lives
Our Wild Lives takes listeners into the heart of wildlife conservation, sharing compelling stories from wildlife professionals doing critical work around the world. Your hosts Katie Perkins and Ed Arnett, of The Wildlife Society, bring you thought-provoking conversations with leading experts and emerging voices. Each episode dives into the wild lives of diverse species, explores complex ecosystems, and unpacks the urgent issues facing wildlife conservation.
Our Wild Lives
A Reflection on 36 Years with the USFWS
After an unexpected early retirement from her 36-year-long career with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, TWS member John Ann Shearer looks back on a career rooted in collaboration and resiliency in this episode of the “Our Wild Lives” podcast.
Through the Partners for Fish and Wildlife program, Shearer guided private landowners to restore thousands of acres of habitat across the U.S. Southeast.
Throughout the conversation, she relays a message of hope for the future of the profession and the next generation despite the challenges ahead.
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What happens when a childhood love for hunting, fishing, and the outdoors grows into a lifetime of conservation work? And what keeps someone hopeful after more than three decades in the field? In this episode, we sit down with John Ann Scheer to reflect on her 36-year career with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. From an unexpected early retirement to a lasting optimism for the future of wildlife conservation, John Ann shares the moments that shaped her journey. We explore her work with the Partners for Fish and Wildlife program, where collaboration with private landowners helped restore thousands of acres of habitat, including the iconic longleaf pine ecosystem. I'm your host, Katie Perkins, and this is the Our Wildlife Podcast brought to you by the Wildlife Society.
SPEAKER_01:I grew up in a hunting and fishing family in North Carolina and was always intrigued by wildlife. My parents were also birders, so I started on the right path to wildlife. I studied biology at University of North Carolina Chapel Hill and went on later for a master's in wildlife at West Virginia University. And I worked for a few years with our state Wildlife Resources Commission and then the last 36 years with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. So I've had many different jobs and one agency for a long time, which was really awesome.
SPEAKER_00:What was that like spending much of your career at one agency? How did you see shifts and changes and maybe what stayed the same throughout those 36 years working at the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I've always been really proud of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. It is got such a clear mission for the betterment of wildlife and the American people. And so I always felt very dedicated and happy to be working for the Fish and Wildlife Service, but I was able to do different jobs. So I started out with our National Wildlife Refuge System and helping with management of different refuges, North Carolina, Alabama, North Dakota, and back to North Carolina, which is my home state. And then later I was able to get into the private lands program, the Partners for Fish and Wildlife program. I left refuges honestly kicking and screaming. I didn't want to go. And then one day I realized, hey, I've got it pretty good with this Partners for Fish and Wildlife. This is awesome. And people tend to get in the Partners for Fish and Wildlife program for their whole career once they're in because it's so satisfying. So I did spend about 27 years in the Partners Program for the latter part of my time with the Fish and Wildlife Service.
SPEAKER_00:What is that partners program like? Can you tell us just a little bit more about that? Sure.
SPEAKER_01:So the Partners for Fish and Wildlife program is designed to help private landowners do habitat restoration on their lands. So we work with private landowners, asking them what are their objectives and how can we help you meet your objectives while also meeting wildlife objectives? Sometimes that is the landowner's objective. But there's always a win-win and helping landowners find that and provide that public-private partnership. So technical assistance and financial assistance.
SPEAKER_00:So these private landowners, is that something where they're coming to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, or you're kind of identifying key areas that are privately owned and in need of wildlife management? How does that work?
SPEAKER_01:A little bit of both. The Partners for Fish and Wildlife Program has a strategic plan. It's small, so it has to be strategic because we can't be everything to everybody. And there's priorities, particularly for rare species, but also for migratory birds and migratory fish and lands around our National Wildlife Refuge System. So when we know of landowners that could help meet those objectives, then we try to appeal to them to do good work for wildlife. Many times the landowners come to us and they hear from their neighbors, hey, I worked with a federal agency and nothing bad happened. And then they find out their land looks really great and they want to do it themselves. And so we get a lot of outreach from landowners to us. And that's sort of sort of how it works both ways.
SPEAKER_00:So is that in all the states? Yes.
SPEAKER_01:It started small, it's still relatively small, but I believe there's still partners for fish and wildlife biologists in every state in the nation.
SPEAKER_00:How would I find more information out about this if this is maybe the first time I'm ever hearing about this?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So the way it usually works, and I really enjoyed this, is landowners would find out, hey, that there's this biologist that might be able to help you. They'd learn from a workshop or from their neighbor, and they would call us. And I used to say that the best calls came in on Friday afternoons. So I'd always sit by my phone on Friday afternoons and you get a call from somebody that says, Hey, you know, a few hundred acres in this county or whatever. And those would just lead to a wonderful conversation. What do you do there? What's it like? And people are proud of their land and they want to share that. But they would say, I have an interest in making that land better. And I heard you might be able to help me. Next thing is a site visit. Go out. You never know what you're getting into, which is a lot of fun. And um listen to people's stories and learn their objectives. And the most important thing is building a relationship.
SPEAKER_00:Definitely.
SPEAKER_01:And until we get that trust, um, then we're not nothing special. But once we have that trust and understanding and a and a relationship, then we can offer all sorts of advice and often find financial assistance to help private landowners. So that's what I got to do for 27 years, which is really awesome.
SPEAKER_00:I imagine the connections you made through that are kind of still withstanding, even though you're not with the agency anymore, of all these people around North Carolina that you were really able to help. And and all of the, you know, habitat and things that you created for wildlife in the process. I'm sure that was a very gratifying 27 years that you spent doing that. You know, can you tell us maybe one specific story of a landowner that you worked with and that had a really big impact on their land and on wildlife conservation as a whole?
SPEAKER_01:There's a unique story for every landowner. And some people I only met a few times, and some people I've known for the whole 27 years. In the East, here and in North Carolina, um, the ownership is relatively small in land compared to outwest. And so people can only do so many projects, you know. So sometimes we only work with people through one project and then we move on. But I think one of the most significant projects that we're able to do in the sand hills of North Carolina in the longleaf pine country, which is where I've done most of my projects, was on a large ownership. And the land, there were multiple landowners and they were absentee, which is also not unusual. They they lived in a whole nother state, but they still wanted to do the right thing for their land. And they had an excellent forester who reached out to me and we began a relationship of managing and restoring their longleaf pine habitat. My intended target was a red cockaded woodpecker, which was endangered at the time. And there were new clusters of woodpeckers that came on that property almost immediately, like within a five to 10 year period. So we saw results. The landowners were, you know, most people don't come to us saying, I want an endangered species. That's just not what people do. And so they were a little, you know, they're afraid of implications of that. But then later, a power line right-away was proposed for the same property, and they didn't want that. And we were able to say, that might not be ideal because we have this endangered species. After that, the landowners started carrying binoculars. They love the red cockaded woodpecker. I was like, this helped protect our land. And it didn't have any management implications for them. Fast forward many years later, those landowners sold that property to a conservation owner who has it under protection now. So I feel really good about that one.
SPEAKER_00:I love that the landowner really got a lot of growth out of this as well. Not just their land improving and becoming a better space for wildlife, but you know, you they became a birder. They started to look out for wildlife. Like that became a part of their life. What a really special kind of impact that this program had.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And the Partners for Fish and Wild program isn't for every landowner. But the cool part is that we know the partners involved. There's so many other agencies, organizations, nonprofits that all have an interest in helping landowners. And we work together and we know each other, and we're able to tell a landowner this program I have might not be what fits your bill, but here's one. Let me introduce you. And so making that connection through partners is really important, has been very successful. But when it comes to general just wildlife advice, and there's a wonderful publication for North Carolina called The Tar Hill Wildlifer. And I I give that to everybody that ever reaches out to me. And I'm like, this is, I hate to reveal my secrets, but this has the best advice. Yeah. And it's available online. So it's general wildlife management tips. But most of the time, the people that uh came to me in this capacity were what I lovingly called the wildlife weirdos. If you want to do something standard and basic, there's many other programs. But if you want to do some fine tuning and tweaking to make it really wildlife friendly, then maybe I was the person to help you do that.
SPEAKER_00:So you said you'd been there for 36 years. You recently retired. Could you tell us a little bit about what drove your decision to retire?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, sure. I I did not want to retire. I love my job. Almost every single day, I was happy to go to my job. And I really wanted to uh, you know, I just wanted to keep working. I thought I would maybe wait until 2026 to retire, which would be an optimal age for me in retirement. But I thought, well, I'll get to that age and then see how it goes. But there was less and less ability for me to accomplish my mission since January of this year. And um, I was given the opportunity, shown the door three times. And when you when you get that by the third time, you think, okay, I think I get the hint here. And it was a voluntary retirement, but I felt that I had to do that. So I took a retirement this spring.
SPEAKER_00:How many people just in like your agency do you know that also took that voluntary retirement?
SPEAKER_01:I really don't know the numbers. I mean, certainly thousands of federal employees have left earlier than they had planned. I'm not sure how many with the partners program. I know that there were six of my immediate workmates locally who did some places more than others.
SPEAKER_00:That's just so hard to hear that, you know, you were still loving your job, you were still making an impact, and you were kind of given this fork in the road and not really given much of a choice, although we say it was voluntary. With so many seasoned biologists just like you leaving through these early retirements and cuts, what do you think is like the institutional knowledge that is is being lost?
SPEAKER_01:I hope that there'll be enough people who have hung on that there won't be institutional knowledge loss. I want to be hopeful. Wildlife people are very optimistic people. That's our nature, and hope that many of my colleagues, very determined and hard-headed, said we're staying no matter what. And they found no fault for those of us who did decide to leave. And I appreciate that. I hope things will be okay, but mentoring is extremely important. People learn life lessons by trying things, but they can get farther quicker when they have a mentor and they have, you know, they just have somebody to call on. And one of the highlights of my career I've enjoyed the most in the last several years is befriending a lot of new partners biologists. I probably once every other week would have a call with somebody I didn't even know who just said, I heard I might should call you and ask you some questions about the partners program. And I really enjoyed those conversations. Some of them turned out to be people who came on with the agency, and we've maintained communication.
SPEAKER_00:Now on the outside looking in, how have you kind of seen what's been unfolding and how is that impacting that partner's program?
SPEAKER_01:I really don't know if there's any implications other than, you know, limited staff, hiring freeze, and and perhaps limited project funding. I used to say, oh, people love me, but I think it was my money. They love the money. So if you don't have something to bring to the table as a partner, you're not so valuable. It's not just your smiling face. You've got to have some resources to offer. Technical assistance is very important, but financial assistance goes a long way. And so if we don't have money to do restoration projects for habitat, then that is a loss. And I think there's still just a lot of unknowns about where that's gonna land. So still looking back on your 36 years, like what are some of your proudest accomplishments?
SPEAKER_00:Sure.
SPEAKER_01:I wasn't quite ready to do that look back at first. And um, a friend of mine challenged me with that question upon my retirement. And I really appreciated being asked that because it forced me to think about it with the private lands work, with the other partners, biologist in North Carolina. We worked as a tight team and together with Longleaf alone, we were able to restore over 14,000 acres. We worked with a couple hundred projects and almost that many landowners. So that is just something I feel really good about. But we did it one acre at a time. You know, it took a lot of years and it wasn't done, you know, uh willy-nilly. We we built those relationships and worked with those landowners. And so I feel very good about that. I also feel good about the mentoring that I mentioned to you earlier and the class that I got to teach. That was really awesome. But there's so many partnerships that make a difference. One of those that I invested a lot of time and effort in was the North Carolina Prescribed Fire Council. There was a small team of people in the early 2000s that started meeting to address barriers to prescribed fire. Prescribed fire is the number one restoration tool, as far as I'm concerned, for most of the habitats that I work with. And um there were so many barriers. There's still a lot of barriers, but we've made huge strides to overcome some of those. So this small group was trying to chip away at how we can improve prescribed burning. And one of those major steps was to start a prescribed fire council. We looked towards Florida and South Carolina for a model, and we started our own fire council. And some years later, I was the president of the council, and we were able to incorporate and become a 501c3. So that's cool.
SPEAKER_00:So, what are some skills and lessons that you learned at a federal agency that you think maybe would be helpful to share with future people who might be going into agency work or if someone's trying to decide should I go with a state, should I go with an agency, should I go nonprofit, should I go private? What would you tell them about your experience working in the federal agency?
SPEAKER_01:I remember even before I went to work for the Fish and Wildlife Service, I had a temporary job as an eagle hacker, which was a term for reintroducing eagles a long time ago. There were no eagles in North Carolina, and that was the process. And I was working for the North Carolina Wildlife Resources Commission, and I learned a lifelong lesson with the very first job. And I call it fondly kicking the dirt because I started that job and I showed up, it was at Madame Mesquite Refuge, and I was ready to put eagles in a tower, feed those eagles, let them release, blah, blah, blah. And my um wonderful supervisor and mentor later at the time wanted to tell some stories. And there was a lot of storytelling. Some of them were about fishing, some of them were about hunting, and I was about to claw my eyes out. I was like ready to go. Like, where are the eagles? Where are the eagles? And then I realized it took it took a while. I realized it a little bit then, and certainly much more later in my career, that it's you gotta take some time, you gotta kick the dirt, you gotta tell some stories, and you get to know people. You get to know what's important to them, and so you can work together as a team. So I attribute that wonderful lesson to Tom Henson, who was my supervisor at the time, and he taught me the importance of kicking the dirt a little bit. So that's one lesson. I'm sure I've learned many things from many mentors. The technical information is very important. You have to know your science. We we don't mess around with that. But almost anybody can be taught that. But it is being a team player, being able to listen and build relationships with people that can make you stand out and make the success of your career.
SPEAKER_00:Definitely. Anyone who listens to all of these episodes is gonna hear that over and over and over again. And that just like really stresses how critically, critically important the people aspect of this profession is because without trust, like you're you're asking, you know, in your case, private landowners and the federal government to do things. And that doesn't happen overnight. That really, really takes relationship building and seeing the people for who they are and and to understand your goals and your objectives better. I think that's that's really, really great advice. Over your decades of service, how did you see the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service kind of evolve for better or for worse?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I think it has been strong and steady over my career. Certainly there's been changes and priorities as administrations have come and gone, but at the field level, the work has stayed consistent and steady. Sometimes with an emphasis on climate change, we work hard to do habitat restoration with private landowners. And sometimes with an emphasis on hunting and fishing, we work hard with private landowners to do habitat restoration. So, you know, certainly there's themes and initiatives that happen, but mostly at the field level, things have been steady. Without a lot of staff and without funding, you know, that's that's the concern at this moment. But we'll see how we might rebound. Certainly, the American people want and value wildlife, they value You clean water and clean air. For a long time, maybe we've taken it for granted and don't realize that it takes a whole workforce to get those products. But I think ultimately people realize that those are so important and it's gonna take effort and we need to pay for that effort.
SPEAKER_00:With these really uncertain times in the federal government as far as wildlife management goes, how do you see private landowners being maybe more important now than ever and creating those relationships with them?
SPEAKER_01:Private landowners have always been extremely important. Even in North Carolina, 90% of our land ownership is private. If every square inch of public land, even including schools and soccer fields, which obviously it wouldn't was perfect for wildlife, it wouldn't be enough to sustain populations of wildlife. So we have to depend on private landowners. And that's the way it should be. So even in the best of times, private landowners have such an important role to play. And I expect many don't realize the opportunity that they have to make a difference. That's one of the reasons I've been really happy that a couple accomplishments in my career have been related to acknowledging and rewarding landowners. We've done that through prescribed burn awards and also established a North Carolina longleaf honor role. It's a way to say thank you for what you're doing. And then that landowner also serves as a model to their neighbor. So they're critically important. They own a lot of land and they can make decisions that both help them financially manage their land, but also benefit wildlife at the same time.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's really important that some of these connections have already been made and we can continue to, you know, like we talked about with partnerships and relationships, continue to nurture these relationships and bring more landowners into it. So I think your work is just so critically important in continuing that. And so you have continued to work with private landowners, correct?
SPEAKER_01:Yes. I am now working for the North Carolina Wildlife Federation and helping them to establish a private lands program. So there are so many partners that want to support private landowners on the federal level, on the state level, and through nonprofits. And I think there's an opportunity for all of those agencies and organizations to benefit landowners. Everybody just has their niche. Everybody comes at it from a slightly different angle or offers something slightly different on the menu. But we all know each other, or that's the goal is to know each other and work together so that we can help each landowner find that thing on the menu that suits them the best and meets our land objectives.
SPEAKER_00:You talk a lot about mentorship and being a mentor and having mentors. What is one step that you would encourage any students or new professionals listening to do to find a mentor and, you know, just generally build their personal network?
SPEAKER_01:I would encourage anyone to make that uncomfortable call, because I know it's hard to do, to somebody and ask them about their career and ask them the best parts and the worst parts and what they wish they had done differently. I've had so many people who've called me ask the best questions. They've obviously been trained up on what to ask, but those questions are really important to guide. And but but it takes a lot of courage, I think, to call, you know, definitely older person and say, you know, say these things. But I want to assure people that that's the most important thing. I love wildlife. I love wildlife habitat, but passing that on to the next generation is the most important thing. So having the courage to do that and then taking it to the next step, go out with them, actually see them in action and watch and learn that way. So job shadowing is a huge step. Um, and then of course, you know, um joining organizations, you know, obviously the Wildlife Society, but I encourage people all the time to get into geographic conservation partnerships, to network, to get into any kind of other club, even if it's um, you know, anything conservation related. You'll meet so many people and it's a good experience for your resume. I've participated in resume reviews and things like that. So that's also a good thing to do as well. But just get yourself out there, even though it might feel a little awkward at first, I feel like you're always going to be welcomed by the people who care the most. So it's worth the risk.
SPEAKER_00:Do you remember some of your earliest memories or experiences with the wildlife society and what were those like?
SPEAKER_01:Oh yes. When I lived in North Dakota, I was told immediately, you will be part of the North Dakota chapter of the Wildlife Society because we all are. And I was like, okay, you know, and that was awesome. And I did that. And I wasn't there but a couple of years, but there were always lively meetings, and I learned a lot. And when I came back to North Carolina, our state chapter has always been extremely active, very strong on recognizing people and supporting each other and networking and having a lot of fun, a lot of socializing, a lot of auctions and things that make things quite spirited. But I would have never interacted with so many wildlife professionals had it not been through the Wildlife Society. And I really got hooked and I got on the board and eventually became president and have had several different positions uh over the years with the state chapter. And it's just very important. I tell that to everybody that I mentor, find your state chapter and get involved. And I've definitely had a lot of mentors through that as well.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. The subunits of TWS are a really, really powerful place to start because it can be very overwhelming. Like when we go to Edmonton this year, and you know, there's a thousand wildlife biologists, and you're like, where do I even start? Like I'm at this mixer and there's hundreds of people and I don't know anyone. So yeah, that's really, really a good starting place. Students, if they have a student chapter, I know North Carolina has a really strong student chapters at all the universities here. So that's an awesome start. That and then the state chapters are just a wealth of knowledge and people that, you know, have work in the same kind of ecosystems you do and know the same people that you do. Looking ahead, what gives you hope that conservation efforts will continue despite the changes that we're seeing at the federal level?
SPEAKER_01:Well, as I said earlier, we're an optimistic bunch. If we weren't, we wouldn't be in the wildlife business. It takes a lot of optimism. And so I'm always hopeful. It's hard on some days, honestly. I've I've struggled a lot um since my departure. Um, I'm not worried as much about the day-to-day things that are happening at work that are attacks on the employees, but I am spending a lot more time on the bigger picture of news, which is is stressful. But I truly believe, as I said, that people value nature. They value the services that nature provides. People love wildlife, whether, whether it's a little bird that lands on their balcony in a big city, or if it's a you know, a giant elk they're pursuing out west, whatever it is, people find this great um sense of who they are in nature. And I I'm hopeful because I think that that will persist and that people will realize that that doesn't happen on its own. That truly does not happen on its own. It takes effort from people to keep our wildlife alive.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you so much for joining us and telling us about your experiences and offering your advice. Thank you so much. It's been my pleasure. Thanks for joining us on the Our Wildlife podcast. If you're ready to dive deeper into the world of wildlife conservation or grow your personal network, visit us at wildlife.org. Follow at the Wildlife Society on social media, and subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss out on a new episode. We'll catch you next week with more stories from the wild.